Curse

distilledwill · Apr 17, 2008, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Shai-hulud: The damage from smiting is actually ok, its not devastating, but its good for the utility.
The main advantage comes from the disruption the knockdown causes. I used Gwen in FoW last night and she allowed us to keep the shadow monks on their ass long enough to hit them with BHA or simply para spike them down.

Mesmers also hold an advantage over warriors as they have increased activation time on signets from fastcasting and have decreased recharge time due to Mantra of Inscriptions.

Super Igor · Apr 17, 2008, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Why SoJ on a warrior again?... -_-

~Super Igor

~

Shai-hulud · Apr 22, 2008, 08:50 AM // 08:50

I do agree that SoJ isn't that bad, in fact I wouldn't know any better elite signet (except perhaps cautery signet, which would give this a more supportive role (which I still like better) or the suggested keystone signet). I was more refering to Bane Signet and Castagation Signet as being bad. I would use blind and other conditions versus physicals and this versus casters (especially monks and eles).

Castagation Signet adds a very small bit of damage - of course it could be just that little bit - but I think another interrupt would be better. The energy gain from this skill is useless in this build, except perhaps on a hero.
Bane Signet - although it has some utility through KD on attacking foes is not much more than additional damage and then again I'd say bring another interrupt.

When we are calculating the DPS we can look at the recharge + casting time, which is about 11,36 and devide the damage through this number giving a DPS of each signet of ~4.2 (SoJ adds ~5.1 DPS). On the long term even just poisoning a foe would be better than bringing those two skills.

Although I do agree that these are skills that work well vs undead, I also think that there are better signets to be used, possibly more interrupts such as disruption signet and leech signet. Other usefull signets could be the PvE skill signets (ebon vanguard although they are not that good) and I think that Signet of Humility is very usefull also.
Ok just looking back at the post and you wrote this change as an optional.

DarkSpirit · Apr 22, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shai-hulud

I do agree that SoJ isn't that bad, in fact I wouldn't know any better elite signet (except perhaps cautery signet, which would give this a more supportive role (which I still like better) or the suggested keystone signet). I was more refering to Bane Signet and Castagation Signet as being bad. I would use blind and other conditions versus physicals and this versus casters (especially monks and eles).

Castagation Signet adds a very small bit of damage - of course it could be just that little bit - but I think another interrupt would be better. The energy gain from this skill is useless in this build, except perhaps on a hero.
Bane Signet - although it has some utility through KD on attacking foes is not much more than additional damage and then again I'd say bring another interrupt.

One thing you have to remember is that skills causing holy damage do often ignore armor. And this build is not meant to deal huge amount of AoE damage anyway. It is for some interrupt+knockdown and utility with some damage.

Quote:

When we are calculating the DPS we can look at the recharge + casting time, which is about 11,36 and devide the damage through this number giving a DPS of each signet of ~4.2 (SoJ adds ~5.1 DPS). On the long term even just poisoning a foe would be better than bringing those two skills.

You are not taking Mantra of Inscriptions into account. With that many signets plus MoI, plus no energy dependencies, Gwen is almost always casting something. Overall, I am quite happy with the build, since many non-necro caster hero builds face energy problems since heroes tend to spam their skills. Therefore even if their build gives high damage numbers on paper, caster heroes can still end up wanding most of the time due to energy shortage. This one not only makes use of Signets for more armor, has no energy dependencies, and synergizes with fast casting. Furthermore Artificer insignia is dirt cheap, so anyone can give it a try.

Quote:

Although I do agree that these are skills that work well vs undead, I also think that there are better signets to be used, possibly more interrupts such as disruption signet and leech signet. Other usefull signets could be the PvE skill signets (ebon vanguard although they are not that good) and I think that Signet of Humility is very usefull also.
Ok just looking back at the post and you wrote this change as an optional.

First of all heroes can't equip PvE skills. Second, there are only 2 PvE-only signets in the game if you dont count Sunspear rebirth or signet of capture. They are Tryptophan Signet and Signet of Infection. Neither of them are spectacular and Signet of Infection is conditional too. Maybe you can rely on Sab's MM jagged horrors for the bleeding then use Signet of Infection but you would have an external dependency for the build.

I put Signet of Humility as a variant, but its use is kind of meh in PvE. I prefer Signet of Disruption to it, and listed Signet of Disruption as a variant if you want more interrupt. You can also add Leech Signet but heroes only use that to interrupt spells and its recharge is not as good. In any case, it is an option if you need a third interrupt signet.

Richardt · Apr 22, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Just wanted to chime in on what a sweet build this is.

Ran it the other night in Shards of Orr HM and it performed as promised. We did make a minor change-just swapped out one the hex removals for Judge's Insight.

I have used it in other places, and it works as promised.

Shai-hulud · Apr 22, 2008, 10:32 PM // 22:32

[QUOTE=DarkSpirit]One thing you have to remember is that skills causing holy damage do often ignore armor. And this build is not meant to deal huge amount of AoE damage anyway. It is for some interrupt+knockdown and utility with some damage. [/qoate]

I know it is meant to be some interrupt/knockdown/utility build. I'm just trying to point out that a skill like castagation signet won't add much damage and although there prolly isn't a much better skill on a heroes bar I would still change this to signet of disruption in the main bar (and signet of disruption actually deals some nice damage as well so you won't lose that much damage)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You are not taking Mantra of Inscriptions into account.

In fact I am taking Mantra of Inscriptions into account. It gives 47% reduction so the 20s recharge signets become 10.6s recharge signets with a casting time of 0.73s (taking fast cast into account), so the average DPS of ~4,2 (47/11,3) isn't really an understatement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

With that many signets plus MoI, plus no energy dependencies, Gwen is almost always casting something. Overall, I am quite happy with the build, since many non-necro caster hero builds face energy problems since heroes tend to spam their skills. Therefore even if their build gives high damage numbers on paper, caster heroes can still end up wanding most of the time due to energy shortage. This one not only makes use of Signets for more armor, has no energy dependencies, and synergizes with fast casting. Furthermore Artificer insignia is dirt cheap, so anyone can give it a try.

I do agree that the advantage of dealing armor ignoring damage is a big advantage and non armor ignoring damaging eles will do less damage than on paper. But still those builds should have a much higher DPS. That having said I think that the smiting signets (especially castagation signet) are just filler signets and could or should be replaced by some more usefull signet - then again this is all about preferences, this is your build and all the other good signets are mentioned as optional so I guess I shouldn't complain :P
I also agree that this build has some great synergies, the armor if phenomenal and the energy is never really a problem. I do think it is a bit of a waste of all the energy, but for a hero there isn't really a better use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

First of all heroes can't equip PvE skills. Second, there are only 2 PvE-only signets in the game if you dont count Sunspear rebirth or signet of capture. They are Tryptophan Signet and Signet of Infection. Neither of them are spectacular and Signet of Infection is conditional too. Maybe you can rely on Sab's MM jagged horrors for the bleeding then use Signet of Infection but you would have an external dependency for the build.

I put Signet of Humility as a variant, but its use is kind of meh in PvE. I prefer Signet of Disruption to it, and listed Signet of Disruption as a variant if you want more interrupt. You can also add Leech Signet but heroes only use that to interrupt spells and its recharge is not as good. In any case, it is an option if you need a third interrupt signet.

I agree that those two PvE signets are not the best but I think it's nice to make a note of them when someone would like to play this build as a human player.
About Signet of Humility I'm afraid that you're right. It is still nice to use against opponents like ruby djinn or versus WoH monks. I guess it's more like an optional skill for certain area's.

All with all I would like to say that I find a similar build I've used fairly effective I just wanted to show my oppinion about those smiting skills that aren't used in their fullest potential (undead, energy and possibly the KD part of bane signet). Thanks for listening :P

DarkSpirit · Apr 22, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

You are welcome.

Signet choices are a little limited, but this build should be viable, from my own testing and the feedback that I have received from others.

I believe human mesmers would be able to make better use of the energy in signet builds since they have the ability to weapon switch to an energy set, whenever they need to cast MoI.

The idea is to replace a signet with high energy cost maintained enchantments like:

- Holy Wrath
- Strength of Honor (if your team is melee heavy)
- Succor

I remember that distilledwill tried to post a human mesmer signet build in the mesmer forum.

Shai-hulud · Apr 22, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Yeah I used Holy Wrath, it's a very nice skill but in long lasting fights it might become a problem while weapon switching.

I think you've noted the most important maintained enchantments, but I think most of the other maintained enchantments are viable. Although there are hardly any points left for prot or something it might still be worthwile to bring a maintained enchantment such as purifying veil, which could be very usefull in condition heavy area's, when you have a draw/martyr hero and especially area's where daze is common (and thus area's where instant condition removal is prefered) - but then again a normal condition removal would probably be better.

Either way from now on I will run this build with strength of honor instead of my smiting monk (smiters boon which they don't use themselves :P) when I'm having fun in NM

DarkSpirit · Apr 23, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

I am thinking of a Martyr hero too because the sabway SS N/Rt sometimes doesn't react fast enough to remove party conditions with Pure was Li Ming.

My initial thought was to use a Martyr Mo/Rt hero with Disciple Insignia

and Resilient Weapon. I ended up making a Bonder out of him and use Blessed Signet for energy management and Protective was Kaolai (or Herald Insignia) for added armor/party heal. He became a Martyr, bonder, restoration hero.

He performs ok, but synchronizing Martyr with Resilient Weapon can be tricky since he can cast Resilient Weapon on others, then Martyr to remove the conditions. Resilient weapon also helps against hexes but since one character can only have one weapon spell active, you can overwrite other weapon spells with it, like Splinter weapon. One problem is energy but since he acts as a bonder too, his lack of energy is somewhat forgivable. I am going to try a N/Mo Martyr hero next.

Leonardo Da Grinchi · Apr 24, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quick comments on two things :

1) For choice of weapon, hands down it ought to be the 20% HCT / 20% HSR Droknar's Smiting Scepter. The 20/20 will increase the DPS of this build nicely. Other alternatives would be the smiting Golden Boar Scepter and the smiting Wayward Wand.

2) For choice of shield, I, too, would go with the endurance handle, since Mantra of Inscriptions should last through any fight (barring stance removal, which I think shouldn't be a problem with all the knockdowns - have you done any testing on this, DS?). Easiest shield for the task would be Arrahhsh's Aegis. The shield isn't particularly expensive, so that'll make up for the choice of weapon.

And btw, thank you for this build. I've been looking for something to do with my mes heroes for some time now, but haven't been motivated prior to seeing this. Nice job.

DarkSpirit · Apr 24, 2008, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonardo Da Grinchi

Quick comments on two things :

1) For choice of weapon, hands down it ought to be the 20% HCT / 20% HSR Droknar's Smiting Scepter. The 20/20 will increase the DPS of this build nicely. Other alternatives would be the smiting Golden Boar Scepter and the smiting Wayward Wand.

2) For choice of shield, I, too, would go with the endurance handle, since Mantra of Inscriptions should last through any fight (barring stance removal, which I think shouldn't be a problem with all the knockdowns - have you done any testing on this, DS?). Easiest shield for the task would be Arrahhsh's Aegis. The shield isn't particularly expensive, so that'll make up for the choice of weapon.

And btw, thank you for this build. I've been looking for something to do with my mes heroes for some time now, but haven't been motivated prior to seeing this. Nice job.

You are welcome.

1) The 20/20 scepter is only for spells, I dont think it effects signets.

Would be nice if it does though.

2) Endurance or Fortitude Shield handles are both good. The difference is only 15hp anyway.

Have fun!

Stuart444 · Apr 24, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I wanted something general and passive. You can use Strength of Honor if you have afew melee characters in your party.

If this is a human mesmer build, you can use Holy Wrath instead since you can weapon switch to renew your mantra, but not a hero.

A signet mesmer build has lots of energy to spare so I wanted an enchant with an upkeep and helps the party.

Unfortunately, Gwen seems to make use of attack signets more frequently than interrupt signets. But Signet of Distraction still works well on her. Here is my revised 7-signets build.

[build prof=Me/Mo box name="Mesmer Hero Artificer Build" fas=7+1 dom=5+1 ins=11+1+1 smi=11][Mantra of Inscriptions][Signet of Distraction][Signet of Judgment][Bane Signet][Castigation Signet][Signet of Disenchantment][Purge Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build] (bye bye spell breaker, obsidian flesh, shadow form, and vow of silence)

Smiting Prayers 11
FC 7+1
Dom 5+1
Inspiration 11+1+1

Template code: OQNEAnUz678AQ+mEUi1XudSEAA

Some Variant:

- Replace Signet of Judgement with Keystone Signet for a more frequent recharge of your signets.
- Replace Purge Signet with Hex Eater Signet for hex removal and extra energy.
- Replace Castigation Signet with Signet of Disruption for an extra interrupt.

Wield a Shield, for more armor, with +30hp and Run for your Life inscription since you dont need that much energy. This gives a total of 81AL (from armor) + 8 (from shield) = 89 AL and you get the +30hp and -2 damage reduction from the shield too.

this looks like a good build, I'm going to start getting the skills I need tonight to use this since it looks rather good and I could use a good mesmer build for Gwen

Leonardo Da Grinchi · Apr 24, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You are welcome.

1) The 20/20 scepter is only for spells, I dont think it effects signets.

Would be nice if it does though.

UGH! You're right. My bad. Any suggestions for weapon? Looking at all the one-handers, there doesn't seem to be anything that really helps this build (in any profession's unique list, anyway). Everything is HCT/HSR, which won't really do anything for the signet skills, or + energy, which this build doesn't look to need. Assuming caster-type weapon would be best, since you don't necessarily want her in melee, even with the added armor from insig and shield? Could always just go for a HCT/HSR for Inspiration to help the single spell in the build, something like Droknar's Inspiration Scepter, I suppose...

DarkSpirit · Apr 24, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonardo Da Grinchi

UGH! You're right. My bad. Any suggestions for weapon? Looking at all the one-handers, there doesn't seem to be anything that really helps this build (in any profession's unique list, anyway). Everything is HCT/HSR, which won't really do anything for the signet skills, or + energy, which this build doesn't look to need. Assuming caster-type weapon would be best, since you don't necessarily want her in melee, even with the added armor from insig and shield? Could always just go for a HCT/HSR for Inspiration to help the single spell in the build, something like Droknar's Inspiration Scepter, I suppose...

Mantra of Inscription is a stance, not a spell either.

I can't think of any good caster wand for the build. Except maybe a -5e/+15% for some extra damage?

Richardt · Apr 24, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

I've just been using the wand Gwen came with.

I don't really see the point in getting her anything else TBH.

DarkSpirit · May 01, 2008, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

Looking forward to trying this build out, just need to Artificier and Shield up my Gwen then I'll give some feedback!

I have some success running Gwen with this:

[build prof=Me/P box name="Cautery Interrupt Heal" fas=8+1 dom=6+1 ins=11+1+1 mot=10][Cautery Signet][Remedy Signet][Mantra of Inscriptions][Signet of Distraction][Signet of Disruption][Hex Eater Signet][Signet of Synergy][Signet of Return][/build]

...but I dont like it, the build does not provide much offense. It is almost pure defense, besides the interrupts.

I also added a Me/N version to the build post:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...10&postcount=3